Heather Welch from Edx Education, In Conversation with Dr Maryhan Baker Psychologist and Parenting Expert
Episode 37- Heather Welch from Edx Education and today we will be in conversation with Dr. Maryhan Baker
Dr Maryhan focuses on helping parents raise confident, resilient, happy children developing abespoke toolkit of practical tools and strategies. She has developed many online workshops for parents, caregivers to tackle challenges like helping children manage those big emotions, supporting children who worry a lot (anxious), managing the use of technology, and boosting your children’s confidence.
Today we are chatting with Dr Maryhan about her research, an assessment tool (cognitive development questionnaire which is being used internationally, play therapy, learning through play and so much more what have you been up to?
n.b there were issues with the sound during this interview
Here are the highlights from the episode:
{4:34} Taking the research out of the lab
{7:10} Separating chronological from developmental age
{12:04} Home schooling puts a strain on adults too
{15:40} Applying the toolkit to help children understand their emotions
{20:04} The value of learning through play
{22:19} Never undervalue the importance of engaging in play with our children
{26:54} We need to meet our children at their needs
Heather Welch (00:02):
You’re listening to education experts with edx education. Education is evolving. Join Heather Welch edx education chatting with teachers, psychologists, parents, authors, creators, and other tons of experts to keep up with the trends and what’s happening from around the globe. This podcast series mediates education discusses, home learning, school readiness, being creatives, changing in education, discussing what’s next hands-on learning or as we like to say, learning through play
Heather Welch (00:38):
Welcome everyone. I’m Heather Welch from edx education, I’m very excited to be in conversation with Dr. Maryhan Baker, a psychologist and parenting expert. Dr. Maryhan focuses on helping parents and caregivers, teachers as well. Raise confident, resilient, and happy children. She’s developed a bespoke toolkit, we’re not talking hammer and nails. We’re talking practical tools and strategies to help parents and caregivers tackle those challenging situations with children, support children who have a lot of worry or feeling anxious, managing the use of technology and boosting children’s confidence. Today we’re chatting with Dr. Maryann about a research and assessment tool, cognitive development questionnaire, which is being used internationally around the world, play therapy, learning through play, and so much more welcome Dr. Maryhan Baker. We are so happy you could join us today. Can I ask you to introduce yourself and tell us what you’ve been up to?
Dr Maryhan Baker (01:32):
I’m Maryhan, I’m a psychologist and a parenting expert, helping children with development and managing those bigger emotions and think I’ve still been up to doing a lot of work, really trying to create more of the toolkit, probably more than anything is helping parents feel more confident and navigate various different milestones, whether that’s emotional development, whether that’s their cognitive development or their physical development, all aspects of it, it’s just having the right tools and knowing how best to support their children,
Heather Welch (02:17):
Which I think after the last 12 months, we all really need that because I know it’s been challenging for all parents and all caregivers. You know, I know with myself, with home learning in and out with children of different age, multiple ages and trying to get them to understand why their worlds have been turned upside down has caused a lot of angst and a little bit of, you know, just not quite sure of their surroundings. I know my three-year-old has had some very big emotions let’s put it that way. Let’s talk research.
When you’re completing your research, there was an assessment tool called cognitive development questionnaire. I’d read a little bit about it. And my understanding is that it allows an accurate assessment of cognitive development of children from 10 years to 24 months at which caregivers and parents can do it, their home. Can you let our listeners know why this tool is used and why it’s so important?
Dr Maryhan Baker (03:08):
Yeah, so when I did my PhD, I was really interested in looking at the relationship between children, general cognitive element and aspects of development, and psychologically the way that usually asses children are the sorts of assessment tools that are clinician, someone that is a psychologist would, administer in a very clinical setting. And my view was very much the act children change their behaviour when they’re in these challenging situations because they don’t feel comfortable.
Dr Maryhan Baker (03:37):
You know, they’ve been taking to a stark room and a really stark environment. To do these scripted games that they’re then assessed how they then perform against them. But if he was actually equip parents to be able to play these games and then observe what their child does, you’re much more likely to get the better, the trick you can really assess genuinely, where are they cognitively because you take the stress and the anxiety out of the environment and you get more of a natural behavior. So I had been trained in a number of various different sort of psychological assessment tools. And I just looked just flipped it on its head and just thought, right, well, if a child has to do X, Y, or Z to demonstrate they have ABC skill, how can we teach that?
Dr Maryhan Baker (04:34):
How can we create a bridge for a game that allows to do that? So the basic level that we look at in terms of understanding X exist in time and space aims that we play with our children all the time. I’m like hiding things with a cloth and getting told to pull the cloth something underneath and observing the surprise face. So it was really, that would really, because my view has always been that children are placed in an environment. I feel comfortable. They always perform much, much better put them in an easement situation. And so what the tools now being used for the cognitive development questionnaire is that all, where psychological researchers are interested in child development and want some measure of where a child is cognitively, they can give that to the parents foster at home, and then do the research only be done in a research lab. So they minimize any sort of distress for the child. that’s what the CDQ is.
Heather Welch (05:43):
It’s such an amazing thing because it is, I know that with, you know, with my own children, when I’ve been teaching as well, that children do behave very differently in a classroom with many if they’re sensory processing or if something is bothering them, rather than if you this at home. And so there are some barriers that you can’t get through, I suppose, that it does actually make them anxious or stressed.
But, you know, I also find that, you know, parents, caregivers that we get caught up with development milestones, and there’s something that I liked you’ve referred to, which is chronological versus development age, Can you explain this to our listeners, to, you know, the difference between the two?
Dr Maryhan Baker (06:22):
I think this is a really important distinction that we need to talk about. So I think it’s a really important distinction, this idea of chronological and developmental age, and in my view, this sort of starts, it even starts when you’re pregnant. I remember reading books about pregnancy and saying, you know, you might be four months pregnant by now.
You may have put on one or two pounds, you might be noticing tenderness , I’ve poured half a stone, and I’m not noticing that, but it’s this sort of idea that when our babies are born, we tend to get fixated with books that talk about, you know, at three months, your child be doing acts at four months to a child be doing Y and then six months they’ll be doing this. And actually our children, there is a very clear distinction. There is our child’s chronological age, which is the age that they’re given by birth.
Dr Maryhan Baker (07:10):
It’s when they were born. And that we celebrate these milestones in terms of six months, a year, two years, three years, but children have a developmental age and the developmental ages is where are they in their journey on a particular aspect of their development and children have lots of these. They’ve got their communication, they’ve got their intellect, they’ve got their fine motor, their gross motor, their social development, their emotional development. With these, the developmental age is basically where is your child at on that journey? And I think it can be really difficult as a parent because we expect their developmental age to be the same as their chronological. And it isn’t almost, every child has some form of bumpy spiky profile where you might have a year old that emotionally aligns as a five-year-old, but their gross motor might respond as a three-year old developmentally.
Dr Maryhan Baker (08:05):
And this doesn’t mean there delayed. It is simply that that’s where they are on that particular journey. And I think it’s really important that we remember this. Particularly when I’m in a lot of the work that I do around emotional development and supporting children with their emotional resilience is that quite often you can have a child where there’s quite a significant gap in terms of their chronological age and their developmental age in terms of their emotions. It doesn’t mean that we’ve got an issue. It just simply means it’s a useful way of helping us understand where we might need to do some additional work where we might need to give them some additional support or where they might be on that journey rather than really getting caught up in comparisons. And I think it is difficult, but it is important to remember that distinction, not all 12 year olds respond in the same way, because they’ve all got different profiles. So I think it’s a really important distinction that we make. And we talk about, and we don’t worry about.
Heather Welch (09:04):
Is this where you develop the toolkits for, so you actually, is this how you do the cognitive? Do you do the cognitive development questionnaire or some sort of similar questionnaire with your children and parents, or caregivers or teachers, you know, depending on where you’re working, and this is where you get a chronological versus development age. And so that, that you do allow parents to be able to see where they are within their skill sets and then build these tool kits for children.
Dr Maryhan Baker (09:33):
Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. It is just working out what it is, you know, which where the gaps are and what areas you need to focus in on. And that will be in a way that I do it certainly with, within families is actually looking at the whole family makeup, because quite often, it’s not just about how one child is where they are chronologically versus developmentally, but how that profile fits around the whole family. We all know that we’ve got children, our children are born to the same parent, be very vastly different in terms of how they’re responding. So not only do we need to understand where each child is, but how that interaction plays out.
Heather Welch (10:17):
Yeah, very true. I mean, I’ve got two little boys and they couldn’t be more different. I’m sure you’ve got that with your own children as well. And during homeschooling, one of mine’s languages developed really well, my youngest, my three-year-old, but his, emotions have been really outbursts. They’ve developed too in a different way. Whereas my oldest child was always very physical and didn’t have these same emotional outbursts, but lived in a very different lifestyle, as well. As you’re saying, looking at the whole family, we were, expats living in another country, has a very different life where he was living.
So it’s really interesting to see, I suppose, I wonder whether you’re getting more of these larger outbursts, like my youngest one. And that’s what we’re dealing with at the moment after these, it’s been an, I suppose, an unprecedented year, it’s an unusual year for all of our children.
Dr Maryhan Baker (11:05):
Yeah. I think it has been, we’ve seen an awful lot around these emotional outbursts because children really thrive on an element of certainty and they thrive in terms of interacting and those social, their sorts of social development has been massively disrupted. Being able to go on play dates. They’ve not been able to go to groups in the same way and just interact with more people. And we all know when we have those intense periods, whether they’re some holidays or school holidays, or just intense times when we’re all together as a family, the dynamic shift, and it can be quite challenging, you know, being around other children and other family, constantly together really shifts things. I think for a lot of children, there’s been a real difficulty in terms of managing patients, because they’ve just had more of this confinement and less of this variety, less of this sort of difference.
Dr Maryhan Baker (12:04):
And I also think we can’t underestimate the amount of stress and uncertainty that we as adults have gone through and trying to juggle a new way of thinking and adapting and not having that distance and space from our children whilst we love and adore.
I’ve got too much older children. We love them. We love being, but actually part of our recharge and our ability to be creative, exciting with them comes from spending time away from them too. And we’ve not had that. And that obviously will impact on our ability to be more spontaneous and just sort of respond to certain situations in a different way. So it has had an impact on everybody.
Heather Welch (12:48):
Absolutely. I mean, there’s a big thing at the moment. We’re all talking about. So a lot of people are talking about loss of academic and then they’re looking at school readiness and what does that mean? And you know, the mental health and wellbeing of our children and the skills we need to move forward after the year, as you’re mentioning, it’s been a lot of uncertainty. What would be your suggestions for parents, for teachers when they’re looking at this wellbeing and mental health of a child, rather than looking at loss of academic for our children, the next school year.
Dr Maryhan Baker (13:15):
Is a really big one for me. I know that there’s been a huge focus on loss of academics. I mean, my personal view is when we have a happy, confident, comfortable child, the academics naturally fall in place. So for act for teachers and educators, my view is actually the more we focus on their social and emotional integration and their confidence, the more likely our children are going to be able to, you know, slot back into school and excel academically. So really focusing in on our time on just making sure that children can talk about their emotions can connect with their peers. So I think definitely for me, that’s a really important aspects. Education is really creating an opportunity when they do go back to school or their childcare setting, just helping them unpick and unpack emotions. You know, what various different emotions there are, how they may show up for that child, either in their body and also in terms of their faith, how might they respond in terms of their behavior, but also what tools and strategies could we teach them to manage their emotions, seek actively support from their hears those things I think is great in terms of investing time, our perspective.
Dr Maryhan Baker (14:34):
And I think the parent in terms of school readiness, I think it is about those independent skills or the ability of your child to be away from you. You’re at that ability to know that you will always return and it’s helping them also talk about emotions and it’s okay to feel nervous, okay. To feel slightly scared and not know what’s happening next. And how might they be able to talk about that and use their voice rather than necessarily being too concerned about the academics, because the academics genuinely patches up as long as you’ve got a happy and confident child. So I think that for me is the more we focus on their emotional resilience and helping them understand their emotions and build their toolkit as a child that’s equipped with all of those will academically fight. When you talk
Heather Welch (15:26):
About toolkit, to looking at things like being able to self-regulate or when they’re anxious, being able to stop and think about, but giving them sort of tips and actually being able to recognize is this what you’re looking at when you talk about toolkits?
Dr Maryhan Baker (15:40):
Yeah. Completely. So, you know, let me give you an example of a, one of the two might look at all about understanding their emotions. So it would be when I feel…., I may…. I need …… So what we’re really trying to do with the, with this particular tool is helping our children understand and label their various emotions. So when I feel sad, for example, I may, how might I know that you were sad as an individual observing you? What might I see when your facial expressions, what might I see in your behavior? What might you be doing? What might you be saying? So again, we’re beginning to build that self-awareness so they understand the emotion and the emotional label. They understand how it shows up for them. And the last need is that process of beginning to work out what their toolkit might be.
Dr Maryhan Baker (16:30):
So when I feel sad, I may need a hug. Okay. That’s great. But what happens if there isn’t anyone available for a hug? What else might you do? So I might need to go and read a book, or I may go and get a cuddly toy. That’s what I mean by the toolkit is beginning to help our children become aware of their emotions and then what they might need for themselves in order to help themselves it’s problem solving and creating almost like a toolkit that they can go much in the same way. As you would have a toolkit to put a picture up, to drill a hole somewhere you go to and you use different tools on different occasions for different things. We’re trying to get our children to be able to build their own toolkit so that they can go to it a different occasion and pull out different things.
Heather Welch (17:19):
So Dr.Maryhan, is it from, I suppose, from birth, these realistic, these toolkits can be used, or these strategies are used, and that’s where you work from families or is it from a certain age from 24 months? Maybe you can say speaking age, you know, never know my children didn’t speak to the sort of closer to three, but, you know, is it that way where they can sort of start to communicate with you? Or is it from birth?
Dr Maryhan Baker (17:40):
Yeah, I think it’s from birth. I think it’s just how we respond to me when we start looking at how we might respond to a child when they’re very, very young, that helps begin that, that idea about emotional regulation, because, you know, emotional development, emotional awareness, and being able to self-regulate comes through observation. So our children are much more likely to do what they see than what we say. So if we’re already modeling it, if we’re talking about even before our children, our age verbally communicate with us, but we’re demonstrating it and we’re talking about it, even when we’re changing their nappies, this is the beginning of that process. And I’m a really, you know, I work with families where things have become incredibly challenging because a child’s mental health issues. And what I do know is that prevention is better than cure.
So the more we focus our effort and our time around this emotional development, the more likely we are to offset and mitigate any issues that come later. So yeah, absolutely from the, from birth, we can start putting some of these strategies in place. Clearly the problem solving ones, where we get the children involved, they need to have a certain level of ability to communicate verbally, but we can begin that process. Pre-verbal when they’re tiny
Heather Welch (18:58):
For modeling the modeling. Good. I suppose it is to agree. It’s modeling behavior that we want them to cause they do copy whatever we do. I know in lockdown, if I’ve been caught, we’re renovating a house we’re homeschooling or home learning, you’re sort of all sort of came to a big disaster. And I was caught a few times. I think renovating in one of the walls fell down. And I think something less than perfect came out of my mouth and my at the time two and a half year old actually repeated it back.
I was like, okay, we need to sort this one out. But it was, you know, you sort of get caught up in a moment or a time that’s when you, you know, as adults, we need to self regulate as well. When you become parents, you, you are tested in so many different ways. And then the last 12 months we’ve all been tested. But I suppose the other one is that we hear a lot of terms like play therapy and it’s something that you’re learning through play and all these important things, rather than academic loss,. Do you want to have a chat about play therapy and how, what you use it for when communicating with children? Yeah. I mean, I,
Dr Maryhan Baker (19:58):
I think I’m probably a bit, but in a child, in a child that’s never really grown up, but I really,
I genuinely think that there is so much value in learning with learning through play. So I’m so pleased. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not anti school, but I certainly believe the longer our children are allowed to play within a formalized setting. The better they will actually do because children learn through experimentation through manipulation of toys and things. And even when I’m working with families where we’ve got really super anxious children, I’m still creating toys and resources for them to use physically. So play therapy is all about being able to connect and to communicate and for a child to learn through toys and through turn-taking and through role-play.
So it’s, for me, it’s the most important thing that we can do in terms of promoting good, develop, cross social development, intellectual development, and emotional development, all of these areas that can do through play. So it’s really using our children’s natural curiosity, their engagement with resources or ability to use a managed, imaginative and creative play, to tap into world and use that as an opportunity to describe new and novel situations.
Dr Maryhan Baker (21:29):
what, how might they play those things out? What might happen in a certain role play situations because children are much more likely to be able to communicate that way. Particularly if you’ve got a child who’s had a really tricky day, maybe they’d been a nursery or a preschool or at school, and you’re playing with some Teddy bears, you’re having a tea party or you’re playing something. Children will often talk through challenges that they have through that scenario. So it can be such a powerful tool. And I think it’s something that we do a lot when our children are preschoolers, but we forget the power of play once they start more formalized education. We just assume that actually just sitting them down after they’ve done their letters or done their reading, that they’re then going to begin to happen. Actually children don’t communicate or access their consciousness in that way.
Dr Maryhan Baker (22:19):
They do it much more when they’re engaging in that toy, because quite often in those situations, you’re parallel, you’re side by side, you’re engaging in something, but between the two of you. So they’re much more likely to be able to access what’s going on for them and be able to communicate that so much more readily. And I would say right up to now, don’t be afraid. Teenagers can, can communicate and learn through play. This isn’t play therapy. Isn’t about preschoolers. This isn’t about early years. This is all the way up. So it’s us being able to be creative and to not undervalue the importance of our time in engaging with play with our children when we want to help them certainly emotionally and developmentally,
Heather Welch (23:10):
People would find it hard with teenagers to get them to play again, because we’ve got such an instantaneous life with all these, you know, they don’t even wait for ads on TV. We don’t wait for anything these days, you know, even, even toys, if you can’t get Amazon prime, we can’t get so people don’t generally like to wait. But I think this is where sometimes, you know, something with, say, for example, we’d locked down. It sort of slowed our lives down a little bit, which allowed us to spend more time if we can. I mean, there was a lot of other factors too, which were very stressful, but to get children to play. And I found that with my older child, I went to messy play in sensory, play with him because I had the younger one as well. And I was trying to teach him something with maths and science.
Heather Welch (23:53):
And I thought, actually, do you know what? You’re not listening with a pen and paper. You’re not interested in the screen. We went out there and did a whole lot of messy play ideas with the little one, which he, then he would just, you know, be playing with like these water beads.
Whereas with my oldest child would then be looking at the concepts of gravity, looking at all sorts of different things. Actually he really loved it and he loved the experiment side of it. So it was kind of like playing, but I could do both my children at once rather than having one in, in front of a screen the whole time, learning it without the visual and the sensory, because he’s a very kinesthetic learner. He likes that feel, see touch and do which most children do. If they’ve got the chance. The little one was able to actually like multiple ages play along with him side by side, which I think was a really big development for me because I found it quite hard to do two different activities rather than doing one activity and swapping doing it with the two for ages, because there’s such a big age gap between them. I think this is what many parents would find. It is hard to find something if you’ve got three or four kids, different ages and that intrinsic motivation, because children love to say, oh, I’m bored. You know, when maybe they’re not so bored, but you’ve got to find that. And I do get this a lot with, you know, when you’re dealing with families with multiple ages.
Dr Maryhan Baker (25:09):
Yeah. That can be really tricky as you say, because you’re, you’re managing different abilities to maybe wait and self regulate and turn, take, and learn and access. But the curriculum as such, in terms of teaching is so often filled with application. So children will cover similar topics over and over again at various different years of their school formalized school education. But what happens is you just access things at a slightly deeper level. So there is no, you know, as you did with deplane children at various different levels will still access what they need at that time. We shouldn’t be afraid of doing things like that. So in a traditional board game, sorry, feel when we’ve got various different ages that the young society really get involved because they don’t understand that maybe of counting on the counting with the counters or being able to wait and take turns or the disappointment winning.
Dr Maryhan Baker (26:10):
But it’s just about scaffolding, what you might need to do for the younger ones and maybe having them play with you. So you do it together and helping them do what they can do whilst allowing the older ones to kind of access the level that they need. So it can be really tricky, but there are ways of doing it. But I think you just need to be more conscious. I think when you’ve got, when you’re working with families and you do have those various different ages, but I also want to touch on with teens, you know, quite often, you know, I do understand that they quite want to be in their bedrooms. They often want to spend time on their own. I think the mistake that we often make is try to pull them into what we’re doing rather than us trying to understand their world.
Dr Maryhan Baker (26:54):
So, you know, we can ask to tell me, you know, show me how the Snapchat thing works. What do you do? What you need, what activity you might be playing with, or why that’s particularly engaged program is we need to meet our children at their needs rather than trying to pull the teen. It’s a bit of both. Yes. We want to get our teens come down and watch a family movie with all of us or pay a family board game. But it’s also about help me understand your world, show them how this works, why you spend so much time on that and why you enjoy that television program, meet them there. And then they’re much more likely to engage and communicate with you in other things. I think it’s, it’s understanding when you’ve got big age differences. What can you do to scaffold the younger ones so that you can also be together, but also when you’ve got much older children, how can you meet them where they’re at so that you can create that connection,
Heather Welch (27:51):
Such an input that is such an important point as well, because sometimes you’re right as parents, we sort of want to bring them into our world and what our experiences were as children, which, you know, very different. We didn’t have the internet when I grew up. So, you know, the whole world is really different these days, the way that children learn, the way that they’re developed, the way their brains work. So there’s nothing unimportant thing is many parents and caregivers, teachers. We all are looking for different strategies. I know you’ve got some amazing workshops online. Do you want to just have a chat about a few of the workshops that you have running at the moment?
Dr Maryhan Baker (28:23):
So I sort of have sort of shifted a lot of my work really to try to have really help parents feel more confident that they can help support their own children. I have a series of digital online courses that parents can go through depending on what area they particularly feel that they need to bridge the gap. These might be courses around managing anxiety or helping children manage those emotions, or it might be confidence. So those are the digital resources, but we also have some physical products, the card decks, which are not even if I say so myself, I’ve been using my own made up laminated version of these card decks for about 15, 20 years. I created them a long, long time ago, but we’ve now formalized them. So they look much beautiful. You don’t have to have my laminated cost officer. But those are really helping children understand about friendships conversation starter so that you can kind of begin to have those con those chats with your children.
Dr Maryhan Baker (29:26):
You know, the qualities of happy family and mantras, which are all to do that internal dialogue that gets in the way of our children, not trying something because they’re too worried that they might fail or that it seems super scary. So that’s the sort of the toolkits are such that we’ve got, for, for families that they can kind of access those we’re also now doing is trying to offer similar sort of approaches for schools that might want some help around emotional development, really integrated within our school. How can we support children around managing friendships or all those sorts of aspects? You know, becoming more self-aware the more recently, a lot of discussion around this idea about children being able to use their voice around, being able to create boundaries and say, actually make it when you do that, that doesn’t make me feel great. So it’s helping on those sorts of that sort of perspective. So they’re all sort of ongoing workshops and they don’t challenge is that our children present, whether they’re at home or whether they’re never seem to come at a convenient time. So it’s just much easier to have these bosses all the time.
Heather Welch (30:37):
Fantastic. Now how can listeners get in touch or even parents? How can parents teachers get in touch with you for your workshops or advice, or even someone might be actually listening to this and think actually, do you know what, that’s something I need within bespoke. You know, more of a bespoke toolkit for my child. I’ve tried other things it’s not working, but however, you know, maybe this is the way forward. So how’s the best way to get in touch with your doctor Maria.
Dr Maryhan Baker (30:58):
It’s the best way. Yeah, just to head over to my website, that’s https://drmaryhan.com and in there there’ll be a section on get help, which has all of the online digital resources and physical products. It’s got access. If you need to contact me about something more bespoke, as well as the schools. And obviously I’ve also got my podcast, which you can listen to, which is all on the website. I’d have to say, I’ve
Heather Welch (31:21):
Actually listened to your episodes on the podcast and it’s called how not to screw up your child, your child or children is amazing. I love the ones when you have a give on each one, and you talked about the glitter, what do you call it?
A glitter over jar, the glitter jar for managing the emotions for the little one. And actually I have tried it with my, my youngest child, cause he does have some big emotions, but thank you so much for chatting with us today. It’s really interesting to hear about the CDQ, the development, the cognitive versus development aid, sorry, chronological versus development age, you know, things about school readiness, play therapy. We’ve got our virtual village. You’ve got, you know, learning through playing what are the emotional development through it. So I can’t thank you enough for joining us today. And we look forward to, I look forward to listening to your podcast and catching up again. Thank you so much.
Dr Maryhan Baker (32:11):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Heather Welch (32:13):
There are so many exciting developments happening right now in education. edX education would love to hear from you. So do get in touch or subscribe to our podcast, which is available on apple or Spotify tune in. And so many more. This podcast series is brought to you by Heather welds for media X education. As she’d like to say, that’s create lifelong learners.
